Electric fence "Electric Shepherd" ESB 250

Discussion in 'Electronic Repair' started by N_Cook, Dec 29, 2008.

  1. N_Cook

    N_Cook Guest

    Before wasting time on this, de-rivetting the step up transformer mounting
    etc.
    Input side measures 5Mohm, HV output side 12.7R, but looks like a standard
    mains transformer.
    Would this be a purpose wound transformer or an off the shelf mains
    transformer that could be replaced with similar, if so what sort of voltages
    and which way round ?


    --
    Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
    electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
    http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/
     
    N_Cook, Dec 29, 2008
    #1
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  2. N_Cook

    N_Cook Guest

    Ron Johnson <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > N_Cook wrote:
    > > Before wasting time on this, de-rivetting the step up transformer

    mounting
    > > etc.
    > > Input side measures 5Mohm, HV output side 12.7R, but looks like a

    standard
    > > mains transformer.

    >
    >
    > Shouldn't that be the other way round?
    >
    >
    > > Would this be a purpose wound transformer or an off the shelf mains
    > > transformer that could be replaced with similar, if so what sort of

    voltages
    > > and which way round ?

    >
    > They might have just used a low volts to mains tranny the 'wrong way

    round'
    >
    > Ron



    5M indicating a break associated with damp air getting in there.

    --
    Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
    electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
    http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/
     
    N_Cook, Dec 29, 2008
    #2
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  3. N_Cook

    Baron Guest

    N_Cook wrote:

    >
    > Before wasting time on this, de-rivetting the step up transformer
    > mounting etc.
    > Input side measures 5Mohm, HV output side 12.7R, but looks like a
    > standard mains transformer.
    > Would this be a purpose wound transformer or an off the shelf mains
    > transformer that could be replaced with similar, if so what sort of
    > voltages and which way round ?


    In the ones I built I used a standard car ignition coil ! 12 volt
    battery and 1 pulse per second into it !

    --
    Best Regards:
    Baron.
     
    Baron, Dec 29, 2008
    #3
  4. N_Cook

    N_Cook Guest

    Baron <> wrote in message
    news:gjaulb$tpp$...
    > N_Cook wrote:
    >
    > >
    > > Before wasting time on this, de-rivetting the step up transformer
    > > mounting etc.
    > > Input side measures 5Mohm, HV output side 12.7R, but looks like a
    > > standard mains transformer.
    > > Would this be a purpose wound transformer or an off the shelf mains
    > > transformer that could be replaced with similar, if so what sort of
    > > voltages and which way round ?

    >
    > In the ones I built I used a standard car ignition coil ! 12 volt
    > battery and 1 pulse per second into it !
    >
    > --
    > Best Regards:
    > Baron.



    As I cannot see how the high current side of a mains transformer could fail
    I drilled out the rivets.
    If originally a mains transformer, looks like one , it had primary 0.4mm
    wire and secondary 0.9mm wire. 0.9mm wire has failed .
    For a , by size , 50W transformer I make that 24V, 2 amp if for a 240V
    transformer.
    Vs = (Vp/2) * (Dp/Ds)^2 , Is = P / Vs
    Fence output voltage not stated on the label. 9 seriesed 0.22 nF (no V
    stated) across the output and also 4.7K, 1W dropper to 2 seriously blackened
    neons in series - any guesses what that indicates as an idea of o/p voltage
    ?
    No obvious visible reason for failure of 0.9mm wire, I would expect the
    0.4mm wire to fail.

    --
    Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
    electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
    http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/
     
    N_Cook, Dec 29, 2008
    #4
  5. N_Cook

    N_Cook Guest

    47K not 4.7K dropper
     
    N_Cook, Dec 29, 2008
    #5
  6. N_Cook

    N_Cook Guest

    Well I would not have believed it unless personally witnessed.
    As the o/c must be on the outer layer of the transformer, I stripped off the
    cloth tape. There is indication that damp air has got in this unit but not
    flooding or internal drips. But in the middle of this outer layer, with no
    sign of corrosion or damp under the tape , generally, there is one spot of
    blue green corrossion and a small break in the 0.9mm wire.
    Maybe a spot of acidic something at that point on assembly and then years of
    damp air. Bridging the break gives resistance of the winding of about 0.2
    ohm.
    Powering on a variac, could not take higher than 150V (saturating) so
    assuming it is 110V transformer ( or problem on the original pimary ) output
    read 4.7V ac , no load, for 110V ac input.


    --
    Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
    electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
    http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/
     
    N_Cook, Dec 30, 2008
    #6
  7. N_Cook

    Baron Guest

    N_Cook wrote:

    > Well I would not have believed it unless personally witnessed.
    > As the o/c must be on the outer layer of the transformer, I stripped
    > off the cloth tape. There is indication that damp air has got in this
    > unit but not flooding or internal drips. But in the middle of this
    > outer layer, with no sign of corrosion or damp under the tape ,
    > generally, there is one spot of blue green corrossion and a small
    > break in the 0.9mm wire. Maybe a spot of acidic something at that
    > point on assembly and then years of damp air.


    I have seen that type of failure in several instances, not just on
    transformer windings ! PCB traces as well. I belive that acid flux has
    been used locally and spattered during soldering. Possibly onto the
    tape and then transfered to the wire.

    > Bridging the break gives
    > resistance of the winding of about 0.2 ohm.
    > Powering on a variac, could not take higher than 150V (saturating) so
    > assuming it is 110V transformer ( or problem on the original pimary )
    > output read 4.7V ac , no load, for 110V ac input.


    I'm a little surprised that it could be a 110V Txf... Or is it a unit
    made in the USA ?

    > --
    > Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
    > electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
    > http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/


    --
    Best Regards:
    Baron.
     
    Baron, Dec 30, 2008
    #7
  8. N_Cook

    N_Cook Guest

    1000:1 EHT divider to scope showed about 1.5V pulses which presumably is
    consistent with no load 8KV. Left the bank of Cs and neons in circuit ,
    giving about 1.5Kv peak pulse.


    --
    Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
    electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
    http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/
     
    N_Cook, Dec 31, 2008
    #8
  9. N_Cook

    Franc Zabkar Guest

    On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 08:26:59 -0000, "N_Cook" <> put
    finger to keyboard and composed:

    >Back working with proper bridged repair, new neons etc . I'm asuming 8KV (it
    >is actually mentioned on the label) , at least it fires a neon via 100M ,
    >(0.1G ) dropper, I will dig out EHT divider today. The casing screws mayvbe
    >UNC which may indicate USA but label has UK address. Electric Shepherd
    >printed on the PCBs


    FWIW the following device has an open output voltage of 8kV.

    Electric Shepherd ESB25 Battery Fence Energiser:
    http://www.rutland-electric-fencing...ludeDealersOnly=False&ProductSearchText=esb25

    I have an electric fence controller kit that works by charging a 7uF
    "dump" capacitor to 340V and then discharging it into the primary of
    the HV transformer. The energy stored by the cap is ...

    E = 0.5 x C x V x V = 0.40J

    Its output voltage peaks at 3.6kV.

    The ESB25 is spec'ed at 0.08 Joules, so perhaps you can work out the
    required capacitor voltage (= transformer primary voltage) as follows:

    V = sqrt( 0.08 x 2 / C)

    Assuming V = 110V, then C = 13uF.

    What is the rated DC voltage of your dump capacitor, assuming yours is
    a similar design?

    - Franc Zabkar
    --
    Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
     
    Franc Zabkar, Jan 1, 2009
    #9
  10. N_Cook

    N_Cook Guest

    Franc Zabkar <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 08:26:59 -0000, "N_Cook" <> put
    > finger to keyboard and composed:
    >
    > >Back working with proper bridged repair, new neons etc . I'm asuming 8KV

    (it
    > >is actually mentioned on the label) , at least it fires a neon via 100M ,
    > >(0.1G ) dropper, I will dig out EHT divider today. The casing screws

    mayvbe
    > >UNC which may indicate USA but label has UK address. Electric Shepherd
    > >printed on the PCBs

    >
    > FWIW the following device has an open output voltage of 8kV.
    >
    > Electric Shepherd ESB25 Battery Fence Energiser:
    >

    http://www.rutland-electric-fencing.co.uk/PageProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=2
    88&ReturnToListURL=PageSearch@2Easpx@3FProductSearchText@3Desb25&ProductList
    TypeName=SearchProductList,%20App_Code,%20Version=0.0.0.0,%20Culture=neutral
    ,%20PublicKeyToken=null&IncludeDealersOnly=False&ProductSearchText=esb25
    >
    > I have an electric fence controller kit that works by charging a 7uF
    > "dump" capacitor to 340V and then discharging it into the primary of
    > the HV transformer. The energy stored by the cap is ...
    >
    > E = 0.5 x C x V x V = 0.40J
    >
    > Its output voltage peaks at 3.6kV.
    >
    > The ESB25 is spec'ed at 0.08 Joules, so perhaps you can work out the
    > required capacitor voltage (= transformer primary voltage) as follows:
    >
    > V = sqrt( 0.08 x 2 / C)
    >
    > Assuming V = 110V, then C = 13uF.
    >
    > What is the rated DC voltage of your dump capacitor, assuming yours is
    > a similar design?
    >
    > - Franc Zabkar
    > --
    > Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.


    All boxed up now but from my listing of major devices it is 20uF, 400V
    Of course the 110V primary is now used as the secondary here, for th
    evoltage step-up. Internal construction looked the same as mains
    transformer.

    --
    Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
    electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
    http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/
     
    N_Cook, Jan 1, 2009
    #10
  11. N_Cook

    Franc Zabkar Guest

    On Thu, 1 Jan 2009 08:39:30 -0000, "N_Cook" <> put
    finger to keyboard and composed:

    >Franc Zabkar <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 08:26:59 -0000, "N_Cook" <> put
    >> finger to keyboard and composed:
    >>
    >> >Back working with proper bridged repair, new neons etc . I'm asuming 8KV

    >(it
    >> >is actually mentioned on the label) , at least it fires a neon via 100M ,
    >> >(0.1G ) dropper, I will dig out EHT divider today. The casing screws

    >mayvbe
    >> >UNC which may indicate USA but label has UK address. Electric Shepherd
    >> >printed on the PCBs

    >>
    >> FWIW the following device has an open output voltage of 8kV.
    >>
    >> Electric Shepherd ESB25 Battery Fence Energiser:
    >>

    >http://www.rutland-electric-fencing.co.uk/PageProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=2
    >88&ReturnToListURL=PageSearch@2Easpx@3FProductSearchText@3Desb25&ProductList
    >TypeName=SearchProductList,%20App_Code,%20Version=0.0.0.0,%20Culture=neutral
    >,%20PublicKeyToken=null&IncludeDealersOnly=False&ProductSearchText=esb25
    >>
    >> I have an electric fence controller kit that works by charging a 7uF
    >> "dump" capacitor to 340V and then discharging it into the primary of
    >> the HV transformer. The energy stored by the cap is ...
    >>
    >> E = 0.5 x C x V x V = 0.40J
    >>
    >> Its output voltage peaks at 3.6kV.
    >>
    >> The ESB25 is spec'ed at 0.08 Joules, so perhaps you can work out the
    >> required capacitor voltage (= transformer primary voltage) as follows:
    >>
    >> V = sqrt( 0.08 x 2 / C)
    >>
    >> Assuming V = 110V, then C = 13uF.
    >>
    >> What is the rated DC voltage of your dump capacitor, assuming yours is
    >> a similar design?


    >All boxed up now but from my listing of major devices it is 20uF, 400V
    >Of course the 110V primary is now used as the secondary here, for th
    >evoltage step-up. Internal construction looked the same as mains
    >transformer.


    Assuming that the energy output of the ESB250 is the same as the
    ESB25, then I calculate that the charging voltage should be 90VDC.
    This seems low for a 400V cap. Maybe you should enquire as to the
    actual energy rating.

    FWIW, the ESB15 energiser is rated at 0.05J:
    http://www.rutland-electric-fencing...25&IncludeDealersOnly=False&BaseProductID=289
    http://preview.tinyurl.com/9xkv7d

    Rutland's recommendations seem inconsistent:
    http://www.rutland-electric-fencing.co.uk/PageAnimalCattle.aspx

    "As a very general guide, the energiser powering a permanent fence
    should have a stored energy of not less than 0.5 joules for cattle
    ...."

    "Dairy cattle being strip grazed can usually be contained with a
    single conductor of poly wire or 12mm poly tape, powered by an
    energiser of around 0.25 Joules or less provided the voltage on the
    fence is around 2,000 - 3000volts."

    BTW, if you ever need to source a replacement transformer, then maybe
    you could consider an old Philips FBT of the type that required a
    tripler. Those would have had an output of 8kV (25kV / 3), and the B+
    would have been 155V or less.

    - Franc Zabkar
    --
    Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
     
    Franc Zabkar, Jan 1, 2009
    #11
  12. N_Cook

    Guest

    On Jan 1, 7:17 pm, Franc Zabkar <> wrote:
    > On Thu, 1 Jan 2009 08:39:30 -0000, "N_Cook" <> put
    > finger to keyboard and composed:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > >Franc Zabkar <> wrote in message
    > >news:...
    > >> On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 08:26:59 -0000, "N_Cook" <> put
    > >> finger to keyboard and composed:

    >
    > >> >Back working with proper bridged repair, new neons etc . I'm asuming 8KV

    > >(it
    > >> >is actually mentioned on the label) , at least it fires a neon via 100M ,
    > >> >(0.1G ) dropper, I will dig out EHT divider today. The casing screws

    > >mayvbe
    > >> >UNC which may indicate USA but label has UK address. Electric Shepherd
    > >> >printed on the PCBs

    >
    > >> FWIW the following device has an open output voltage of 8kV.

    >
    > >> Electric Shepherd ESB25 Battery Fence Energiser:

    >
    > >http://www.rutland-electric-fencing.co.uk/PageProductDetail.aspx?Prod...
    > >88&ReturnToListURL=PageSearch@2Easpx@3FProductSearchText@3Desb25&ProductLi­st
    > >TypeName=SearchProductList,%20App_Code,%20Version=0.0.0.0,%20Culture=neutr­al
    > >,%20PublicKeyToken=null&IncludeDealersOnly=False&ProductSearchText=esb25

    >
    > >> I have an electric fence controller kit that works by charging a 7uF
    > >> "dump" capacitor to 340V and then discharging it into the primary of
    > >> the HV transformer. The energy stored by the cap is ...

    >
    > >>  E  = 0.5 x C x V x V = 0.40J

    >
    > >> Its output voltage peaks at 3.6kV.

    >
    > >> The ESB25 is spec'ed at 0.08 Joules, so perhaps you can work out the
    > >> required capacitor voltage (= transformer primary voltage) as follows:

    >
    > >>  V = sqrt( 0.08 x 2 / C)

    >
    > >> Assuming V = 110V, then C = 13uF.

    >
    > >> What is the rated DC voltage of your dump capacitor, assuming yours is
    > >> a similar design?

    > >All boxed up now but from my listing of major devices it is 20uF, 400V
    > >Of course the 110V primary is now used as the secondary here, for th
    > >evoltage step-up. Internal construction looked the same as mains
    > >transformer.

    >
    > Assuming that the energy output of the ESB250 is the same as the
    > ESB25, then I calculate that the charging voltage should be 90VDC.
    > This seems low for a 400V cap. Maybe you should enquire as to the
    > actual energy rating.
    >
    > FWIW, the ESB15 energiser is rated at 0.05J:http://www.rutland-electric-fencing...aspx?Prod...http://preview.tinyurl.com/9xkv7d
    >
    > Rutland's recommendations seem inconsistent:http://www.rutland-electric-fencing.co.uk/PageAnimalCattle.aspx
    >
    > "As a very general guide, the energiser powering a permanent fence
    > should have a stored energy of not less than 0.5 joules for cattle
    > ..."
    >
    > "Dairy cattle being strip grazed can usually be contained with a
    > single conductor of poly wire or 12mm poly tape, powered by an
    > energiser of around 0.25 Joules or less provided the voltage on the
    > fence is around 2,000 - 3000volts."
    >
    > BTW, if you ever need to source a replacement transformer, then maybe
    > you could consider an old Philips FBT of the type that required a
    > tripler. Those would have had an output of 8kV (25kV / 3), and the B+
    > would have been 155V or less.
    >
    > - Franc Zabkar
    > --
    > Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    I have a problem with the ESB 55 version. I believe that the thyristor
    has blown. It seems to be an 82516 from ST Philips but has been
    discontinued. Does anybody know of an alternative??? The two neons
    have also blackened but I do not know what to replace them with. Could
    you let me know what you used please. Many thanks. Jeff.
     
    , Jan 26, 2009
    #12
  13. N_Cook

    N_Cook Guest

    I have a problem with the ESB 55 version. I believe that the thyristor
    has blown. It seems to be an 82516 from ST Philips but has been
    discontinued. Does anybody know of an alternative??? The two neons
    have also blackened but I do not know what to replace them with. Could
    you let me know what you used please. Many thanks. Jeff.

    ++++++

    I just replaced the pair with a couple of standard mains indicator ones ,
    without any dropper, just the original dropper which probably should have a
    higher ohmic value. But as used outdoor, to see them flash then necessary,
    then probably a matter of replacing the neons when necessary

    --
    Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
    electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
    http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/
     
    N_Cook, Jan 27, 2009
    #13
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