EEstor battery/super capacitor

Discussion in 'Electronic Design' started by Ian Macmillan, Dec 24, 2008.

  1. I have been looking at the recently issued US patent 7466536 for a radical
    "battery" design from EEstor. In summary, the "battery" is actually an array
    of 31353 physically small capacitors of 980uF at 3500 volts making a
    total of 30.693 Farads and capable of storing 52.22 KWh of energy in a
    package weighing 128 Kg.

    All the numbers add up, but look a bit calculated. Assuming it actually
    exists, there seem to be a number of practical problems for any automotive
    environment, including safety concerns.

    On this note, the patent document says, somewhat disingenuously I feel:

    " None of the EESU materials used to fabricate the EESU, which are aluminum,
    aluminum oxide, copper, composition-modified barium titanate powder,
    silver-filled epoxy, and poly(ethylene terephthalate) plastic will explode
    when being recharged or impacted. Thus the EESU is a safe product when used
    in electric vehicles, buses, bicycles, tractors, or any device that is used
    for transportation or to perform work, portable tools of all kinds, portable
    computers, or any device or system that requires electrical energy storage.
    "

    Well, um!

    I am not at all sure that I would like the consequences of a shorted
    "battery" dumping 50 KWh into a plasma. This is not likely to be a peaceful
    event, and I suspect it could be similar to detonating a few pounds of TNT.

    As the invention claims the possibility of charging the "battery" in 3
    minutes or less (about 300A at 3.5KV) the battery resistance would have to
    be very low if it is not to be cooked on recharge, and this would indicate
    the possibility of a high intensity discharge. How could safety of recharge
    by the unskilled be guaranteed?

    Notwithstanding all that, I think that this is a very interesting
    development that it will pay to follow.

    All the best
    Ian Macmillan
     
    Ian Macmillan, Dec 24, 2008
    #1
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  2. Ian Macmillan

    Fred_Bartoli Guest

    "Ian Macmillan" <> a écrit dans le message de
    news:...
    >I have been looking at the recently issued US patent 7466536 for a radical
    > "battery" design from EEstor. In summary, the "battery" is actually an
    > array
    > of 31353 physically small capacitors of 980uF at 3500 volts making a
    > total of 30.693 Farads and capable of storing 52.22 KWh of energy in a
    > package weighing 128 Kg.
    >
    > All the numbers add up, but look a bit calculated. Assuming it actually
    > exists, there seem to be a number of practical problems for any
    > automotive
    > environment, including safety concerns.
    >
    > On this note, the patent document says, somewhat disingenuously I feel:
    >
    > " None of the EESU materials used to fabricate the EESU, which are
    > aluminum,
    > aluminum oxide, copper, composition-modified barium titanate powder,
    > silver-filled epoxy, and poly(ethylene terephthalate) plastic will explode
    > when being recharged or impacted. Thus the EESU is a safe product when
    > used
    > in electric vehicles, buses, bicycles, tractors, or any device that is
    > used
    > for transportation or to perform work, portable tools of all kinds,
    > portable
    > computers, or any device or system that requires electrical energy
    > storage.
    > "
    >
    > Well, um!
    >
    > I am not at all sure that I would like the consequences of a shorted
    > "battery" dumping 50 KWh into a plasma. This is not likely to be a
    > peaceful
    > event, and I suspect it could be similar to detonating a few pounds of
    > TNT.
    >
    > As the invention claims the possibility of charging the "battery" in 3
    > minutes or less (about 300A at 3.5KV) the battery resistance would have to
    > be very low if it is not to be cooked on recharge, and this would indicate
    > the possibility of a high intensity discharge. How could safety of
    > recharge
    > by the unskilled be guaranteed?
    >


    Insert a diode in series. Then you can easily charge it and it's short
    sircuit proof.


    > Notwithstanding all that, I think that this is a very interesting
    > development that it will pay to follow.
    >


    --
    Thanks,
    Fred.
     
    Fred_Bartoli, Dec 24, 2008
    #2
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  3. Ian Macmillan

    Tim Williams Guest

    "Fred_Bartoli" <>
    wrote in message news:4952314e$0$32083$...
    > Insert a diode in series. Then you can easily charge it and it's short
    > sircuit proof.


    What if you overcharge it? :)

    The list of materials doesn't sound too exciting. If barium titanate is
    used for the most part, what's so special about that? I mean, we already
    have multilayer ceramic chip capacitors.

    Let's see, Digikey sells, say, 10uF 50V MLCCs for about 13 cents/ea in
    quantities of 10k. That's $1300 for 0.1F 50V or 125J (within ratings ;) ),
    or 96 mJ/$. Size is 1210 footprint, doesn't say how tall but let's say it's
    1/8" cubed. That's 19 in^3 (0.31 l), another cube 2.7" on each side. That
    means these things are about 403 Ws/l, or 0.11 Wh/l. A typical
    supercapactor, on the other hand, places 5.7 Wh/l and provides 18 J/$.
    Double layer types are clearly superior, even if you can't pull a
    microsecond pulse off them.

    Tim

    --
    Deep Friar: a very philosophical monk.
    Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms
     
    Tim Williams, Dec 24, 2008
    #3
  4. Ian Macmillan

    Nobody Guest

    On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 22:22:13 +1100, Ian Macmillan wrote:

    > I am not at all sure that I would like the consequences of a shorted
    > "battery" dumping 50 KWh into a plasma. This is not likely to be a peaceful
    > event, and I suspect it could be similar to detonating a few pounds of TNT.


    NIST cites:

    ton of TNT (energy equivalent) 25 joule (J) 4.184 E+09

    [http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/appenB8.html]

    So 50Kwh = ~43Kg of TNT

    > As the invention claims the possibility of charging the "battery" in 3
    > minutes or less (about 300A at 3.5KV) the battery resistance would have to
    > be very low if it is not to be cooked on recharge, and this would indicate
    > the possibility of a high intensity discharge. How could safety of recharge
    > by the unskilled be guaranteed?


    I'm sure that you could fit all manner of fail-safe mechanisms to deal
    with recharging (and to prevent them from being used in "pranks"). Safety
    of maintenance by the unskilled could be more interesting. I think that
    these would need to be sealed units, with a mechanism to prevent them from
    being opened unless fully discharged.

    I daresay they'll be making an appearance on "world's coolest traffic
    accidents" sooner or later.
     
    Nobody, Dec 24, 2008
    #4
  5. Ian Macmillan

    krw Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    >
    > John Larkin wrote:
    > >
    > > On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 12:16:52 -0600, "Tim Williams"
    > > <> wrote:
    > >
    > > >"Fred_Bartoli" <>
    > > >wrote in message news:4952314e$0$32083$...
    > > >> Insert a diode in series. Then you can easily charge it and it's short
    > > >> sircuit proof.
    > > >
    > > >What if you overcharge it? :)
    > > >
    > > >The list of materials doesn't sound too exciting. If barium titanate is
    > > >used for the most part, what's so special about that? I mean, we already
    > > >have multilayer ceramic chip capacitors.
    > > >
    > > >Let's see, Digikey sells, say, 10uF 50V MLCCs for about 13 cents/ea in
    > > >quantities of 10k. That's $1300 for 0.1F 50V or 125J (within ratings ;) ),
    > > >or 96 mJ/$.

    > >
    > > Cool. 52 KWH is about 190e6 joules. The 10 uf 50v cap stores 12.5 mJ.
    > > So he'd need about 15 billion of them, if my math is right. But I bet
    > > the 10 uF degrades a lot at 50 volts, so you'd need more.
    > >
    > > I don't think my Rabbit would hold 15 billion caps.

    >
    >
    > How about if you add a top carrier? ;-)


    Good idea. Then you can extract the energy out of all the tops?


    --
    Keith
     
    krw, Dec 25, 2008
    #5
  6. Ian Macmillan

    ehsjr Guest

    Michael A. Terrell wrote:
    > John Larkin wrote:
    >
    >>On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 12:16:52 -0600, "Tim Williams"
    >><> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>"Fred_Bartoli" <>
    >>>wrote in message news:4952314e$0$32083$...
    >>>
    >>>>Insert a diode in series. Then you can easily charge it and it's short
    >>>>sircuit proof.
    >>>
    >>>What if you overcharge it? :)
    >>>
    >>>The list of materials doesn't sound too exciting. If barium titanate is
    >>>used for the most part, what's so special about that? I mean, we already
    >>>have multilayer ceramic chip capacitors.
    >>>
    >>>Let's see, Digikey sells, say, 10uF 50V MLCCs for about 13 cents/ea in
    >>>quantities of 10k. That's $1300 for 0.1F 50V or 125J (within ratings ;) ),
    >>>or 96 mJ/$.

    >>
    >>Cool. 52 KWH is about 190e6 joules. The 10 uf 50v cap stores 12.5 mJ.
    >>So he'd need about 15 billion of them, if my math is right. But I bet
    >>the 10 uF degrades a lot at 50 volts, so you'd need more.
    >>
    >>I don't think my Rabbit would hold 15 billion caps.

    >
    >
    >
    > How about if you add a top carrier? ;-)
    >
    >
    >

    Or feed it premium gas, so it can grow. Or does that
    make it multiply, as rabbits often do?

    Ed
     
    ehsjr, Dec 26, 2008
    #6
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