chip swelling up and getting fried

Discussion in 'Electronic Basics' started by DJ, Jul 14, 2004.

  1. DJ

    DJ Guest

    Hi all,
    I am stuck with this problem of a BGA chip getting fried within a
    few seconds of powerup.The chip takes in 2 power supplies.1v for core
    and a 3v3 for i/o's.There are no overshoots or undershoots that i can
    see in the oscilloscopes.
    The chip has worked on the same board for sometime but eventually gets
    burned out or swelling in the package is seen.I have done the power
    sequenceing as per the manufactures requirement but still having major
    problems.
    I have exhausted all the options i can look into......please help me
    start looking for some thing that can lead me to the problem.
    Can someone tell me where the likly problem can be?.
    The CMOS chip works for a few seconds but goes on getting hot till
    the swelling appears and then the chip is dead.It has a plastic
    package.The chip has a PCI interface.will the overshoot on the signals
    damage the chip so badly?


    Regards
    DJ
    DJ, Jul 14, 2004
    #1
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  2. DJ

    Boris Mohar Guest

    On 14 Jul 2004 04:48:08 -0700, (DJ) wrote:

    >Hi all,
    > I am stuck with this problem of a BGA chip getting fried within a
    >few seconds of powerup.The chip takes in 2 power supplies.1v for core
    >and a 3v3 for i/o's.There are no overshoots or undershoots that i can
    >see in the oscilloscopes.
    >The chip has worked on the same board for sometime but eventually gets
    >burned out or swelling in the package is seen.I have done the power
    >sequenceing as per the manufactures requirement but still having major
    >problems.
    >I have exhausted all the options i can look into......please help me
    >start looking for some thing that can lead me to the problem.
    >Can someone tell me where the likly problem can be?.
    > The CMOS chip works for a few seconds but goes on getting hot till
    >the swelling appears and then the chip is dead.It has a plastic
    >package.The chip has a PCI interface.will the overshoot on the signals
    >damage the chip so badly?
    >
    >
    >Regards
    >DJ


    Don't use no name chips ;)

    --

    Boris Mohar
    Boris Mohar, Jul 14, 2004
    #2
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  3. DJ wrote...
    >
    > I am stuck with this problem of a BGA chip getting fried within a
    > few seconds of powerup. ... The CMOS chip works for a few seconds
    > but goes on getting hot till the swelling appears ...


    Sounds like SCR latchup, wihch once triggered causes a high-current
    capable turned-on SCR to appear across the supply rails. If you are
    sequencing the power supplies correctly, then you may have an input
    that exceeds one of the supplies and is injecting enough current
    through the chip's static-protection diodes to initiate SCR latchup.

    Thanks,
    - Win

    (email: use hill_at_rowland-dot-org for now)
    Winfield Hill, Jul 14, 2004
    #3
  4. DJ

    Bob F. Guest

    "DJ" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Hi all,
    > I am stuck with this problem of a BGA chip getting fried within a
    > few seconds of powerup.The chip takes in 2 power supplies.1v for core
    > and a 3v3 for i/o's.There are no overshoots or undershoots that i can
    > see in the oscilloscopes.


    Have you bothered to measure the current being drawn by this device? Take a
    look at the data sheet and see what the expected power consumed by the
    device should be then check to see how much power it is consuming in your
    design. Remember, current measurements are made by connecting the DVM in a
    serial connection.

    What is the device? How many bumps does it have? Double check your
    design/layout to ensure that all of the inputs/outputs are correctly pulled
    up or pulled down according to the MFG's guidelines.
    Bob F., Jul 14, 2004
    #4
  5. DJ

    clive Guest

    Is the chip 5 volt tolerant on PCI bus or are you using a 3.3V PCI
    (relatively rare). Was chip definitely working?

    Clive
    "DJ" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Hi all,
    > I am stuck with this problem of a BGA chip getting fried within a
    > few seconds of powerup.The chip takes in 2 power supplies.1v for core
    > and a 3v3 for i/o's.There are no overshoots or undershoots that i can
    > see in the oscilloscopes.
    > The chip has worked on the same board for sometime but eventually gets
    > burned out or swelling in the package is seen.I have done the power
    > sequenceing as per the manufactures requirement but still having major
    > problems.
    > I have exhausted all the options i can look into......please help me
    > start looking for some thing that can lead me to the problem.
    > Can someone tell me where the likly problem can be?.
    > The CMOS chip works for a few seconds but goes on getting hot till
    > the swelling appears and then the chip is dead.It has a plastic
    > package.The chip has a PCI interface.will the overshoot on the signals
    > damage the chip so badly?
    >
    >
    > Regards
    > DJ
    clive, Jul 14, 2004
    #5
  6. DJ

    John Larkin Guest

    On 14 Jul 2004 04:48:08 -0700, (DJ) wrote:

    >Hi all,
    > I am stuck with this problem of a BGA chip getting fried within a
    >few seconds of powerup.The chip takes in 2 power supplies.1v for core
    >and a 3v3 for i/o's.There are no overshoots or undershoots that i can
    >see in the oscilloscopes.
    >The chip has worked on the same board for sometime but eventually gets
    >burned out or swelling in the package is seen.I have done the power
    >sequenceing as per the manufactures requirement but still having major
    >problems.
    >I have exhausted all the options i can look into......please help me
    >start looking for some thing that can lead me to the problem.
    >Can someone tell me where the likly problem can be?.
    > The CMOS chip works for a few seconds but goes on getting hot till
    >the swelling appears and then the chip is dead.It has a plastic
    >package.The chip has a PCI interface.will the overshoot on the signals
    >damage the chip so badly?
    >
    >
    >Regards
    >DJ


    If it's a ram-based FPGA, it could be a weird configuration file. It's
    possible to program some of these parts to self-destruct.

    Could the PCI bus be pulling the i/o's above 3.3?

    John
    John Larkin, Jul 14, 2004
    #6
  7. DJ

    CWatters Guest

    "DJ" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Hi all,
    > I am stuck with this problem of a BGA chip getting fried within a
    > few seconds of powerup.The chip takes in 2 power supplies.1v for core
    > and a 3v3 for i/o's.There are no overshoots or undershoots that i can
    > see in the oscilloscopes.


    Check the power sequencing. Does the chip require 3v3 to be up before the
    1v?

    What about inputs to the chip? Do they appear before the rails are up?
    Perhaps you are "latching up" an unprotected input pin (perhaps an analog
    I/O pin- they don't always have protection).

    Are the clocks running? Some dynamic devices get a bit hot and bothered if
    they aren't clocked.

    Heatsinks not big enough? With some BGA you need to extract heat through the
    PCB as well as from the top of. They need the correct PCB footprint and
    weight of copper.

    Reset not long enough to allow correct operation? Bit unlikely though.
    CWatters, Jul 14, 2004
    #7
  8. DJ

    DaveC Guest

    On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:43:21 -0700, John Larkin wrote
    (in article <>):

    > If it's a ram-based FPGA, it could be a weird configuration file. It's
    > possible to program some of these parts to self-destruct.


    Recollection of Motorola's "CFBU" (catch fire and burn up :) opcode. That
    was that in the first 6502's, wasn't it?
    --
    DaveC

    This is an invalid return address
    Please reply in the news group
    DaveC, Jul 14, 2004
    #8
  9. DJ

    John Larkin Guest

    On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:10:58 -0700, DaveC <> wrote:

    >On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:43:21 -0700, John Larkin wrote
    >(in article <>):
    >
    >> If it's a ram-based FPGA, it could be a weird configuration file. It's
    >> possible to program some of these parts to self-destruct.

    >
    >Recollection of Motorola's "CFBU" (catch fire and burn up :) opcode. That
    >was that in the first 6502's, wasn't it?



    S/360 had a bunch of reserved opcodes...

    http://listserv.uark.edu/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0406&L=vmesa-l&F=&S=&P=62319

    My favorite is BKO Branch and kill operator


    The PDP-11 had the (real) LandMine instruction,

    MOV -(PC), -(PC)

    which copied itself into all of memory.

    John
    John Larkin, Jul 14, 2004
    #9
  10. > S/360 had a bunch of reserved opcodes...

    I haven't hunted up details, but two favourites of mine (that were
    real instructions) were named:

    EBRS: Emit Burnt Resister Smell (on an early computer). Caused a
    particular resister to overheat.

    HCF: Halt and Catch Fire (caused such a tight loop in microcode that
    part of the ucode ROM would melt, think this one was at Intel).

    Clifford.
    Clifford Heath, Jul 15, 2004
    #10
  11. DJ

    Ken Smith Guest

    In article <>,
    Clifford Heath <> wrote:
    >> S/360 had a bunch of reserved opcodes...

    >
    >I haven't hunted up details, but two favourites of mine (that were
    >real instructions) were named:
    >
    >EBRS: Emit Burnt Resister Smell (on an early computer). Caused a
    >particular resister to overheat.
    >
    >HCF: Halt and Catch Fire (caused such a tight loop in microcode that
    >part of the ucode ROM would melt, think this one was at Intel).


    The MOT 6800 had a HCF. It didn't litterally catch fire. All of the
    busses had squarewaves on them etc so a scope could be used to check the
    signals.

    The RCA 1802 had a SEX instruction. It stood for "set index".

    The Z80 had / has several that are sort of "load and ignore value". They
    cause a ram read but nothing happens to the value.


    --
    --
    forging knowledge
    Ken Smith, Jul 15, 2004
    #11
  12. DJ

    Bill Bertram Guest

    "DaveC" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:43:21 -0700, John Larkin wrote
    > (in article <>):
    >
    > > If it's a ram-based FPGA, it could be a weird configuration file. It's
    > > possible to program some of these parts to self-destruct.

    >
    > Recollection of Motorola's "CFBU" (catch fire and burn up :) opcode. That
    > was that in the first 6502's, wasn't it?


    Motorola didn't make the 6502, I think you mean the 6800.

    -Bill
    Bill Bertram, Jul 15, 2004
    #12
  13. In article <cd4tnu$eo4$>,
    says...
    > In article <>,
    > Clifford Heath <> wrote:
    > >> S/360 had a bunch of reserved opcodes...

    > >
    > >I haven't hunted up details, but two favourites of mine (that were
    > >real instructions) were named:
    > >
    > >EBRS: Emit Burnt Resister Smell (on an early computer). Caused a
    > >particular resister to overheat.
    > >
    > >HCF: Halt and Catch Fire (caused such a tight loop in microcode that
    > >part of the ucode ROM would melt, think this one was at Intel).

    >
    > The MOT 6800 had a HCF. It didn't litterally catch fire. All of the
    > busses had squarewaves on them etc so a scope could be used to check the
    > signals.
    >
    > The RCA 1802 had a SEX instruction. It stood for "set index".


    One of the microprocessors I worked with (6800? NatSemi
    PACE? - too many to remember;) had an LSEX instruction
    (Load with Sign EXtended).

    >
    > The Z80 had / has several that are sort of "load and ignore value". They
    > cause a ram read but nothing happens to the value.


    Some current processors have such instructions. For
    example, the PowerPC's DCBT (Data Cache Block Touch) is
    used for data cache prefetching (and streaming) and to
    load the TLB.

    Not an instruction, but one could get the monochrome
    monitor on the original IBM PC to release its magic
    smoke by writing an I/O register.

    --
    Keith
    Keith Williams, Jul 15, 2004
    #13
  14. Gee, this might be as simple as an unrecognized floating input. Or, it
    might also be due to needing more capacitance on the power supply terminals.
    Simple, simple. Try the most obvious options first.

    Cheers!

    Sir Charles W. Shults III, K. B. B.
    Xenotech Research
    321-206-1840
    Sir Charles W. Shults III, Jul 15, 2004
    #14
  15. DJ

    Rich Grise Guest

    on Thursday 15 July 2004 06:09 am, Keith Williams wrote:
    > says...
    >> Clifford Heath <> wrote:


    >> >HCF: Halt and Catch Fire (caused such a tight loop in microcode that
    >> >part of the ucode ROM would melt, think this one was at Intel).


    >> The Z80 had / has several that are sort of "load and ignore value". They
    >> cause a ram read but nothing happens to the value.

    >
    > Some current processors have such instructions. For
    > example, the PowerPC's DCBT (Data Cache Block Touch) is
    > used for data cache prefetching (and streaming) and to
    > load the TLB.


    I believe the 8008 (I know it was one of them where the
    instructions are almost microcode themselves) had a "store
    immediate", kinda the converse of load immediate, i.e., it
    would write the contents of A to [PC+1].
    --
    Cheers!
    Rich
    Rich Grise, Jul 16, 2004
    #15
  16. DJ

    Daniel Rudy Guest

    And somewhere around the time of 07/14/2004 13:12, the world stopped and
    listened as John Larkin contributed the following to humanity:

    > On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:10:58 -0700, DaveC <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:43:21 -0700, John Larkin wrote
    >>(in article <>):
    >>
    >>
    >>>If it's a ram-based FPGA, it could be a weird configuration file. It's
    >>>possible to program some of these parts to self-destruct.

    >>
    >>Recollection of Motorola's "CFBU" (catch fire and burn up :) opcode. That
    >>was that in the first 6502's, wasn't it?

    >
    >
    >
    > S/360 had a bunch of reserved opcodes...
    >
    > http://listserv.uark.edu/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0406&L=vmesa-l&F=&S=&P=62319
    >
    > My favorite is BKO Branch and kill operator
    >
    >
    > The PDP-11 had the (real) LandMine instruction,
    >
    > MOV -(PC), -(PC)
    >
    > which copied itself into all of memory.
    >
    > John
    >



    Let's not forget the infamous Pentium F00F bug that would lock up the
    CPU so hard that a reset was need to recover.

    --
    Daniel Rudy

    Email address has been encoded to reduce spam.
    Remove all numbers, then remove invalid, email, no, and spam to reply.
    Daniel Rudy, Jul 16, 2004
    #16
  17. DJ

    Daniel Rudy Guest

    And somewhere around the time of 07/14/2004 08:43, the world stopped and
    listened as John Larkin contributed the following to humanity:

    >
    > If it's a ram-based FPGA, it could be a weird configuration file. It's
    > possible to program some of these parts to self-destruct.
    >


    That can happen!?

    *goes and triple checks RAM-FPGA config files*

    --
    Daniel Rudy

    Email address has been encoded to reduce spam.
    Remove all numbers, then remove invalid, email, no, and spam to reply.
    Daniel Rudy, Jul 16, 2004
    #17
  18. DJ

    John Larkin Guest

    On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:18:28 GMT, Daniel Rudy
    <i0n1v2a3l4i5d6d7c8r9u0d1y2e3m4a5i6l7@n0o1p2a3c4b5e6l7l8s9p0a1m2.3n4e5t6>
    wrote:

    >And somewhere around the time of 07/14/2004 13:12, the world stopped and
    >listened as John Larkin contributed the following to humanity:
    >
    >> On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:10:58 -0700, DaveC <> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:43:21 -0700, John Larkin wrote
    >>>(in article <>):
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>If it's a ram-based FPGA, it could be a weird configuration file. It's
    >>>>possible to program some of these parts to self-destruct.
    >>>
    >>>Recollection of Motorola's "CFBU" (catch fire and burn up :) opcode. That
    >>>was that in the first 6502's, wasn't it?

    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> S/360 had a bunch of reserved opcodes...
    >>
    >> http://listserv.uark.edu/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0406&L=vmesa-l&F=&S=&P=62319
    >>
    >> My favorite is BKO Branch and kill operator
    >>
    >>
    >> The PDP-11 had the (real) LandMine instruction,
    >>
    >> MOV -(PC), -(PC)
    >>
    >> which copied itself into all of memory.
    >>
    >> John
    >>

    >
    >
    >Let's not forget the infamous Pentium F00F bug that would lock up the
    >CPU so hard that a reset was need to recover.



    I loved the 286 ("brain damaged CPU" to quote Bill Gates) trick to get
    out of protected mode back into real mode. The CPU designers forgot to
    allow an instruction to do this, so somebody patented the idea of
    sending a command to the keyboard controller to reset the CPU. I think
    early versions of Windoze actually used this technique.

    John
    John Larkin, Jul 16, 2004
    #18
  19. DJ

    Nico Coesel Guest

    Daniel Rudy
    <i0n1v2a3l4i5d6d7c8r9u0d1y2e3m4a5i6l7@n0o1p2a3c4b5e6l7l8s9p0a1m2.3n4e5t6>
    wrote:

    >And somewhere around the time of 07/14/2004 08:43, the world stopped and
    >listened as John Larkin contributed the following to humanity:
    >
    >>
    >> If it's a ram-based FPGA, it could be a weird configuration file. It's
    >> possible to program some of these parts to self-destruct.
    >>

    >
    >That can happen!?


    With Xilinx Spartan devices: Definitely YES.

    >*goes and triple checks RAM-FPGA config files*


    Hmm, a 0.5 amp fuse will do fine to protect your FPGA, just don't (be
    stupid like me and...) shunt it with a wire when it blows, but replace
    it. Or get a polyswitch / polyfuse.

    --
    Reply to nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
    Bedrijven en winkels vindt U op www.adresboekje.nl
    Nico Coesel, Jul 17, 2004
    #19
  20. DJ

    Daniel Rudy Guest

    And somewhere around the time of 07/17/2004 13:42, the world stopped and
    listened as Nico Coesel contributed the following to humanity:

    > Daniel Rudy
    > <i0n1v2a3l4i5d6d7c8r9u0d1y2e3m4a5i6l7@n0o1p2a3c4b5e6l7l8s9p0a1m2.3n4e5t6>
    > wrote:
    >
    >
    >>And somewhere around the time of 07/14/2004 08:43, the world stopped and
    >>listened as John Larkin contributed the following to humanity:
    >>
    >>
    >>>If it's a ram-based FPGA, it could be a weird configuration file. It's
    >>>possible to program some of these parts to self-destruct.
    >>>

    >>
    >>That can happen!?

    >
    >
    > With Xilinx Spartan devices: Definitely YES.
    >
    >


    Ok, I'm using the parts from Lattice Semiconductor.

    >>*goes and triple checks RAM-FPGA config files*

    >
    >
    > Hmm, a 0.5 amp fuse will do fine to protect your FPGA, just don't (be
    > stupid like me and...) shunt it with a wire when it blows, but replace
    > it. Or get a polyswitch / polyfuse.
    >


    That's a good idea. My question now is how an errant config can kill
    the device? Loop something around from output to input? Or is there
    some way that it can short VCC to GND? I'm thinking the latter since
    you mentioned the fuse...

    --
    Daniel Rudy

    Email address has been encoded to reduce spam.
    Remove all numbers, then remove invalid, email, no, and spam to reply.
    Daniel Rudy, Jul 18, 2004
    #20
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