Brush vs. Brushless Generators ?

Discussion in 'Home Power and Microgeneration' started by DFS, Nov 21, 2005.

  1. DFS

    DFS Guest

    Are there any advantages to brushless generator heads ? Comparing the two
    gold standards, Honda appears to be sticking with brush-type generator in
    the popular EM/EX series while Yamaha uses the brushless designs. The
    brushless designs tout a better wave form and no brush wear as principle
    advantages. Are they equally as robust?

    Dave
     
    DFS, Nov 21, 2005
    #1
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  2. DFS

    Ecnerwal Guest

    In article <n2sgf.19775$>,
    "DFS" <> wrote:

    > Are there any advantages to brushless generator heads ? Comparing the two
    > gold standards, Honda appears to be sticking with brush-type generator in
    > the popular EM/EX series while Yamaha uses the brushless designs. The
    > brushless designs tout a better wave form and no brush wear as principle
    > advantages. Are they equally as robust?


    The popular Honda series is not a prime power unit. Nor is the
    comparable Yamaha. But any quality prime power unit is brushless, IMLE,
    and I think that (and the lack of "generator crapping out due to worn
    brushes", EMI/RFI from brushes, etc...) is enough for me.

    If you want robust, you want 1800 rpm liquid cooled diesel, unless you
    can find a 1200 or 900 rpm unit (unlikely at small scale, though Bruce
    has mentioned a 1200 rpm in the under 3 KW class). Gasoline engines are
    not robust by comparison, especially not air cooled ones. You will need
    a wallet crowbar, however, unless you get very lucky in the used market.

    --
    Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
     
    Ecnerwal, Nov 22, 2005
    #2
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  3. DFS

    Awsome Guest

    I like brushless generator head, durable and long lasting as compare to
    brush type generator. In fact I recently bought one on ebay that is
    brushless 16KW and cost me only $260. Search on ebay under"generator head"
    and you will see many listed there.
     
    Awsome, Nov 22, 2005
    #3
  4. In article <>,
    Ecnerwal <> wrote:

    > In article <n2sgf.19775$>,
    > "DFS" <> wrote:
    >
    > > Are there any advantages to brushless generator heads ? Comparing the two
    > > gold standards, Honda appears to be sticking with brush-type generator in
    > > the popular EM/EX series while Yamaha uses the brushless designs. The
    > > brushless designs tout a better wave form and no brush wear as principle
    > > advantages. Are they equally as robust?

    >
    > The popular Honda series is not a prime power unit. Nor is the
    > comparable Yamaha. But any quality prime power unit is brushless, IMLE,
    > and I think that (and the lack of "generator crapping out due to worn
    > brushes", EMI/RFI from brushes, etc...) is enough for me.
    >
    > If you want robust, you want 1800 rpm liquid cooled diesel, unless you
    > can find a 1200 or 900 rpm unit (unlikely at small scale, though Bruce
    > has mentioned a 1200 rpm in the under 3 KW class). Gasoline engines are
    > not robust by comparison, especially not air cooled ones. You will need
    > a wallet crowbar, however, unless you get very lucky in the used market.


    In the case of Brushed vs Brushless, the main difference is price of
    materials. Brushed requires much less copper as you only have two
    sets of windings, Exciter, and Sator, where in brushless you have 4
    windings. Most brushed genends are self regulating in design.
    In brushed you have slips rings and brush, brush holders,
    springs, Ect. In brushless, you have rotating diodes, more windings,
    and an AVR. (Auto Voltage Regulator) Brushless would seem to need
    less maintainance, and be more robust, but is more complicated and
    when it breaks, requires more smarts to find and fix the problem.


    >"But any quality prime power unit is brushless, IMLE,
    > and I think that (and the lack of "generator crapping out due to worn
    > brushes", EMI/RFI from brushes, etc...) is enough for me.


    Well not really true..... There are plenty of Prine Power Gensets
    that have brushes. I know of a whole series of CAT 398's 800Kw
    gensets that have brushes and sliprings on the rotating exciter.
    Brushed and Brushless is more a function of design age than Prime
    or not Prime Power.

    In todays technology for under 20Kw Prime Power you really should look
    at 1800 Rpm Brushless Genends powered by whatever fuel suits you fancy.
    Liquid Cooled is ALWAYS better than Air Cooled for operater available,
    Prime Powered system. Where Air Cooled is nice is for Remote Site Prime
    Powere Systems, that have LONG Service intervals. Alascom uses some
    really nice Air Cooled, 3 Cyl, 1200 Rpm, 12Kw Lister diesel gensets
    with 45 USG lubeOil Sumps, that run 24/7 and get service once every six
    months. These are at Helocopter Accessable only sites on Mountain Tops,
    and some of these units have over 175K operating hours on them. Alascom
    does Inframe rebuilds on them every 40K operating hours, so that means
    some of these engines have been rebuilt 3 times already and still going
    strong. Now that is what I call Prime Power, with longevity......

    I have a Fairbanks/Morse 45B that turns at 1200 Rpm and drives a Dayton
    3600 Rpm 3Kw Genend via a 3:1 Belt&Shieve setup. NOt really a Prime
    Power Unit but the friend that is using it, runs it 12/7 all summer long
    at his cabin to keep the freezers cold and the Inverter Batteries
    charged. Nothing like slow Rpms to increase longevity.....

    Bruce in alaska just a note.......
    --
    add a <2> before @
     
    Bruce in Alaska, Nov 22, 2005
    #4
  5. DFS

    SQLit Guest

    "Bruce in Alaska" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In article <>,
    > Ecnerwal <> wrote:
    >
    > > In article <n2sgf.19775$>,
    > > "DFS" <> wrote:
    > >
    > > > Are there any advantages to brushless generator heads ? Comparing the

    two
    > > > gold standards, Honda appears to be sticking with brush-type generator

    in
    > > > the popular EM/EX series while Yamaha uses the brushless designs. The
    > > > brushless designs tout a better wave form and no brush wear as

    principle
    > > > advantages. Are they equally as robust?

    > >
    > > The popular Honda series is not a prime power unit. Nor is the
    > > comparable Yamaha. But any quality prime power unit is brushless, IMLE,
    > > and I think that (and the lack of "generator crapping out due to worn
    > > brushes", EMI/RFI from brushes, etc...) is enough for me.
    > >
    > > If you want robust, you want 1800 rpm liquid cooled diesel, unless you
    > > can find a 1200 or 900 rpm unit (unlikely at small scale, though Bruce
    > > has mentioned a 1200 rpm in the under 3 KW class). Gasoline engines are
    > > not robust by comparison, especially not air cooled ones. You will need
    > > a wallet crowbar, however, unless you get very lucky in the used market.

    >
    > In the case of Brushed vs Brushless, the main difference is price of
    > materials. Brushed requires much less copper as you only have two
    > sets of windings, Exciter, and Sator, where in brushless you have 4
    > windings. Most brushed genends are self regulating in design.
    > In brushed you have slips rings and brush, brush holders,
    > springs, Ect. In brushless, you have rotating diodes, more windings,
    > and an AVR. (Auto Voltage Regulator) Brushless would seem to need
    > less maintainance, and be more robust, but is more complicated and
    > when it breaks, requires more smarts to find and fix the problem.
    >
    >
    > >"But any quality prime power unit is brushless, IMLE,
    > > and I think that (and the lack of "generator crapping out due to worn
    > > brushes", EMI/RFI from brushes, etc...) is enough for me.

    >
    > Well not really true..... There are plenty of Prine Power Gensets
    > that have brushes. I know of a whole series of CAT 398's 800Kw
    > gensets that have brushes and sliprings on the rotating exciter.
    > Brushed and Brushless is more a function of design age than Prime
    > or not Prime Power.
    >
    > In todays technology for under 20Kw Prime Power you really should look
    > at 1800 Rpm Brushless Genends powered by whatever fuel suits you fancy.
    > Liquid Cooled is ALWAYS better than Air Cooled for operater available,
    > Prime Powered system. Where Air Cooled is nice is for Remote Site Prime
    > Powere Systems, that have LONG Service intervals. Alascom uses some
    > really nice Air Cooled, 3 Cyl, 1200 Rpm, 12Kw Lister diesel gensets
    > with 45 USG lubeOil Sumps, that run 24/7 and get service once every six
    > months. These are at Helocopter Accessable only sites on Mountain Tops,
    > and some of these units have over 175K operating hours on them. Alascom
    > does Inframe rebuilds on them every 40K operating hours, so that means
    > some of these engines have been rebuilt 3 times already and still going
    > strong. Now that is what I call Prime Power, with longevity......
    >
    > I have a Fairbanks/Morse 45B that turns at 1200 Rpm and drives a Dayton
    > 3600 Rpm 3Kw Genend via a 3:1 Belt&Shieve setup. NOt really a Prime
    > Power Unit but the friend that is using it, runs it 12/7 all summer long
    > at his cabin to keep the freezers cold and the Inverter Batteries
    > charged. Nothing like slow Rpms to increase longevity.....
    >
    > Bruce in alaska just a note.......
    > --


    Bruce are there any of the old oil field Whittys (whitfeild?) up there. I
    know of some remote ranches here in AZ that use them for power. Single
    cylinder diesels, 6 foot fly wheels and run at about 900 rpm. I remember
    there is a guy near Prescott Valley that can still work on the engines.
    Most of the engine parts have to be made now days. These engines, I was
    told, have not been produced since the 1930's. Once you get the gearing down
    they will run a gen head for ever. At least the ones I have worked on.
     
    SQLit, Nov 24, 2005
    #5
  6. DFS

    sno Guest

    SQLit wrote:
    >
    > "Bruce in Alaska" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > In article <>,
    > > Ecnerwal <> wrote:
    > >
    > > > In article <n2sgf.19775$>,
    > > > "DFS" <> wrote:
    > > >
    > > > > Are there any advantages to brushless generator heads ? Comparing the

    > two
    > > > > gold standards, Honda appears to be sticking with brush-type generator

    > in
    > > > > the popular EM/EX series while Yamaha uses the brushless designs. The
    > > > > brushless designs tout a better wave form and no brush wear as

    > principle
    > > > > advantages. Are they equally as robust?
    > > >
    > > > The popular Honda series is not a prime power unit. Nor is the
    > > > comparable Yamaha. But any quality prime power unit is brushless, IMLE,
    > > > and I think that (and the lack of "generator crapping out due to worn
    > > > brushes", EMI/RFI from brushes, etc...) is enough for me.
    > > >
    > > > If you want robust, you want 1800 rpm liquid cooled diesel, unless you
    > > > can find a 1200 or 900 rpm unit (unlikely at small scale, though Bruce
    > > > has mentioned a 1200 rpm in the under 3 KW class). Gasoline engines are
    > > > not robust by comparison, especially not air cooled ones. You will need
    > > > a wallet crowbar, however, unless you get very lucky in the used market.

    > >
    > > In the case of Brushed vs Brushless, the main difference is price of
    > > materials. Brushed requires much less copper as you only have two
    > > sets of windings, Exciter, and Sator, where in brushless you have 4
    > > windings. Most brushed genends are self regulating in design.
    > > In brushed you have slips rings and brush, brush holders,
    > > springs, Ect. In brushless, you have rotating diodes, more windings,
    > > and an AVR. (Auto Voltage Regulator) Brushless would seem to need
    > > less maintainance, and be more robust, but is more complicated and
    > > when it breaks, requires more smarts to find and fix the problem.
    > >
    > >
    > > >"But any quality prime power unit is brushless, IMLE,
    > > > and I think that (and the lack of "generator crapping out due to worn
    > > > brushes", EMI/RFI from brushes, etc...) is enough for me.

    > >
    > > Well not really true..... There are plenty of Prine Power Gensets
    > > that have brushes. I know of a whole series of CAT 398's 800Kw
    > > gensets that have brushes and sliprings on the rotating exciter.
    > > Brushed and Brushless is more a function of design age than Prime
    > > or not Prime Power.
    > >
    > > In todays technology for under 20Kw Prime Power you really should look
    > > at 1800 Rpm Brushless Genends powered by whatever fuel suits you fancy.
    > > Liquid Cooled is ALWAYS better than Air Cooled for operater available,
    > > Prime Powered system. Where Air Cooled is nice is for Remote Site Prime
    > > Powere Systems, that have LONG Service intervals. Alascom uses some
    > > really nice Air Cooled, 3 Cyl, 1200 Rpm, 12Kw Lister diesel gensets
    > > with 45 USG lubeOil Sumps, that run 24/7 and get service once every six
    > > months. These are at Helocopter Accessable only sites on Mountain Tops,
    > > and some of these units have over 175K operating hours on them. Alascom
    > > does Inframe rebuilds on them every 40K operating hours, so that means
    > > some of these engines have been rebuilt 3 times already and still going
    > > strong. Now that is what I call Prime Power, with longevity......
    > >
    > > I have a Fairbanks/Morse 45B that turns at 1200 Rpm and drives a Dayton
    > > 3600 Rpm 3Kw Genend via a 3:1 Belt&Shieve setup. NOt really a Prime
    > > Power Unit but the friend that is using it, runs it 12/7 all summer long
    > > at his cabin to keep the freezers cold and the Inverter Batteries
    > > charged. Nothing like slow Rpms to increase longevity.....
    > >
    > > Bruce in alaska just a note.......
    > > --

    >
    > Bruce are there any of the old oil field Whittys (whitfeild?) up there. I
    > know of some remote ranches here in AZ that use them for power. Single
    > cylinder diesels, 6 foot fly wheels and run at about 900 rpm. I remember
    > there is a guy near Prescott Valley that can still work on the engines.
    > Most of the engine parts have to be made now days. These engines, I was
    > told, have not been produced since the 1930's. Once you get the gearing down
    > they will run a gen head for ever. At least the ones I have worked on.


    New 650 to 1000 rpm listers, 6 to 12 hp....if you are serious about
    continuous power and longevity....start at 2000 dollars US.

    http://utterpower.com/index.html

    http://oldstylelisters.com/

    have fun....sno

    --
    Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it

    This tag line is generated by:

    SLTG (Silly Little Tag Generator)
     
    sno, Nov 24, 2005
    #6
  7. In article <U9chf.1798$>,
    "SQLit" <> wrote:

    > Bruce are there any of the old oil field Whittys (whitfeild?) up there. I
    > know of some remote ranches here in AZ that use them for power. Single
    > cylinder diesels, 6 foot fly wheels and run at about 900 rpm. I remember
    > there is a guy near Prescott Valley that can still work on the engines.
    > Most of the engine parts have to be made now days. These engines, I was
    > told, have not been produced since the 1930's. Once you get the gearing down
    > they will run a gen head for ever. At least the ones I have worked on.


    Actually, you can buy a Witte, NEW, as they are still in production. A
    bit on the expensive side but still avaiable. I have some neighbors
    (within 60 miles) that have Witte's turning genends for power. Most
    however are using newer designed engines, like Onan, and some of the
    Asian engines. (Yanmar, Isuszu, ect.)
    Slow speed Listers, and the Indian Lister Knockoffs are also very nice
    for longevity, but you have to put up with "HEAVY IRON" type engines,
    and the knockoffs tend to have funny nonstandard bearings and the like.
    The China Diesels are basically Benz knockoffs, but have very funny
    bearing specs. Seems no two production runs use the same bearing sets.
    My brother (the engineer) is having a connecting rod bearing for a
    China Diesel custom built because the old one is an off-size and the
    factory no longer exists.

    Bruce in alaska
    --
    add a <2> before @
     
    Bruce in Alaska, Nov 24, 2005
    #7
  8. DFS

    Me Guest

    In article <>, sno <> wrote:

    > New 650 to 1000 rpm listers, 6 to 12 hp....if you are serious about
    > continuous power and longevity....start at 2000 dollars US.
    >
    > http://utterpower.com/index.html
    >
    > http://oldstylelisters.com/
    >
    > have fun....sno
    >
    > --
    > Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it
    >
    > This tag line is generated by:
    >
    > SLTG (Silly Little Tag Generator)


    These are NOT Listers, but Indian Lister clones.......

    Just a note......


    Me
     
    Me, Nov 24, 2005
    #8
  9. DFS

    Steve Spence Guest

    SQLit wrote:

    > Bruce are there any of the old oil field Whittys (whitfeild?) up there. I
    > know of some remote ranches here in AZ that use them for power. Single
    > cylinder diesels, 6 foot fly wheels and run at about 900 rpm. I remember
    > there is a guy near Prescott Valley that can still work on the engines.
    > Most of the engine parts have to be made now days. These engines, I was
    > told, have not been produced since the 1930's. Once you get the gearing down
    > they will run a gen head for ever. At least the ones I have worked on.
    >
    >


    Sounds similar to a lister.

    --
    Steve Spence
    Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
    Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
    http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
     
    Steve Spence, Nov 30, 2005
    #9
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