Re: OT: For You Science Guys - Microsoft Project Tuva

On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:53:17 -0400, Wayne.B
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Maybe it's just me but I find this very cool. Bill Gates has
>acquired the rights to a series of lectures by famous physicist
>Richard Feynman and has put them online with full transcripts and
>animated annotations. Feynman, of course, is not only a Nobel prize
>winner but an incredibly lucid speaker who has a good sense of humor
>and a gift for explaining the very complicated at a human level.
>
>http://research.microsoft.com/apps/t...uva/index.html


We can all be grateful for Bill's munificence. Perhaps he could have
as well adopted the Linux model and permitted Windows to be
open-source. That would have been righteous.

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On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 17:27:03 -0400, Wayne.B
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:16:34 -0500, (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:53:17 -0400, Wayne.B
>><(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>>>Maybe it's just me but I find this very cool. Bill Gates has
>>>acquired the rights to a series of lectures by famous physicist
>>>Richard Feynman and has put them online with full transcripts and
>>>animated annotations. Feynman, of course, is not only a Nobel prize
>>>winner but an incredibly lucid speaker who has a good sense of humor
>>>and a gift for explaining the very complicated at a human level.
>>>
>>>http://research.microsoft.com/apps/t...uva/index.html
>>
>>
>>We can all be grateful for Bill's munificence. Perhaps he could have
>>as well adopted the Linux model and permitted Windows to be
>>open-source. That would have been righteous.
>
>Sometimes the profit motive can be a good thing, and certainly
>competition always is. Linux will force Microsoft to stay
>competetive, and Windows offers the rest of us a solution in a box
>that is easy to install. There's no question that Windows is a
>resource hog and sometimes slower than you'd like, but the price is
>reasonable in my opinion and the hardware vendors have done a good job
>keeping up with requirements.

The Microsoft model certainly has been successful. Microsoft's
success, though, can be traced back to IBM's pc open-architecture.
Remember when the pc, 8086, -286, -386, et al, were referred to as IBM
clones?

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On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 21:29:11 -0400, BAR <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:53:17 -0400, Wayne.B
>> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>>> Maybe it's just me but I find this very cool. Bill Gates has
>>> acquired the rights to a series of lectures by famous physicist
>>> Richard Feynman and has put them online with full transcripts and
>>> animated annotations. Feynman, of course, is not only a Nobel prize
>>> winner but an incredibly lucid speaker who has a good sense of humor
>>> and a gift for explaining the very complicated at a human level.
>>>
>>> http://research.microsoft.com/apps/t...uva/index.html
>>
>>
>> We can all be grateful for Bill's munificence. Perhaps he could have
>> as well adopted the Linux model and permitted Windows to be
>> open-source. That would have been righteous.
>
>You did notice that Billy Gates didn't get all philanthropic until he
>got all of his.

Ja, Ja!

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On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 21:30:25 -0400, BAR <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 17:27:03 -0400, Wayne.B
>> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:16:34 -0500, (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:53:17 -0400, Wayne.B
>>>> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Maybe it's just me but I find this very cool. Bill Gates has
>>>>> acquired the rights to a series of lectures by famous physicist
>>>>> Richard Feynman and has put them online with full transcripts and
>>>>> animated annotations. Feynman, of course, is not only a Nobel prize
>>>>> winner but an incredibly lucid speaker who has a good sense of humor
>>>>> and a gift for explaining the very complicated at a human level.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://research.microsoft.com/apps/t...uva/index.html
>>>>
>>>> We can all be grateful for Bill's munificence. Perhaps he could have
>>>> as well adopted the Linux model and permitted Windows to be
>>>> open-source. That would have been righteous.
>>> Sometimes the profit motive can be a good thing, and certainly
>>> competition always is. Linux will force Microsoft to stay
>>> competetive, and Windows offers the rest of us a solution in a box
>>> that is easy to install. There's no question that Windows is a
>>> resource hog and sometimes slower than you'd like, but the price is
>>> reasonable in my opinion and the hardware vendors have done a good job
>>> keeping up with requirements.
>>
>> The Microsoft model certainly has been successful. Microsoft's
>> success, though, can be traced back to IBM's pc open-architecture.
>> Remember when the pc, 8086, -286, -386, et al, were referred to as IBM
>> clones?
>
>The clone was the IBM PC, not the processor.

The IBM pc incorporated the intel processor. That's why Lotus, Intel,
and Microsoft convened to develop the LIM specification. And I may be
mistaken; but, I believe that's when Bill proffered his 'no one will
need more than 64k [conventional memory].' The point, though, is that
IBM's decision not to protect it's architecture for it's personal pc
by patent benefited Microsoft more than many may appreciate or history
may record.

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On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 22:00:31 -0400, BAR <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 21:30:25 -0400, BAR <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>>> (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 17:27:03 -0400, Wayne.B
>>>> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:16:34 -0500, (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:53:17 -0400, Wayne.B
>>>>>> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maybe it's just me but I find this very cool. Bill Gates has
>>>>>>> acquired the rights to a series of lectures by famous physicist
>>>>>>> Richard Feynman and has put them online with full transcripts and
>>>>>>> animated annotations. Feynman, of course, is not only a Nobel prize
>>>>>>> winner but an incredibly lucid speaker who has a good sense of humor
>>>>>>> and a gift for explaining the very complicated at a human level.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://research.microsoft.com/apps/t...uva/index.html
>>>>>> We can all be grateful for Bill's munificence. Perhaps he could have
>>>>>> as well adopted the Linux model and permitted Windows to be
>>>>>> open-source. That would have been righteous.
>>>>> Sometimes the profit motive can be a good thing, and certainly
>>>>> competition always is. Linux will force Microsoft to stay
>>>>> competetive, and Windows offers the rest of us a solution in a box
>>>>> that is easy to install. There's no question that Windows is a
>>>>> resource hog and sometimes slower than you'd like, but the price is
>>>>> reasonable in my opinion and the hardware vendors have done a good job
>>>>> keeping up with requirements.
>>>> The Microsoft model certainly has been successful. Microsoft's
>>>> success, though, can be traced back to IBM's pc open-architecture.
>>>> Remember when the pc, 8086, -286, -386, et al, were referred to as IBM
>>>> clones?
>>> The clone was the IBM PC, not the processor.
>>
>> The IBM pc incorporated the intel processor. That's why Lotus, Intel,
>> and Microsoft convened to develop the LIM specification. And I may be
>> mistaken; but, I believe that's when Bill proffered his 'no one will
>> need more than 64k [conventional memory].' The point, though, is that
>> IBM's decision not to protect it's architecture for it's personal pc
>> by patent benefited Microsoft more than many may appreciate or history
>> may record.
>
>IBM was late to the party.
>
>Way back in 1983 I was running a CTOS, PC-DOS, and CP/M-86 on a single
>8086 with 640K of memory. When I say running I mean running and not
>booting up one after the other. The problem was the cost of the systems
>prohibitied there widespread commercial adoption. However, one uniformed
>service had them deployed all over the world in mass quantities.
>
>And, this all predated the release of IBM's vaunted PC and Apple's much
>marketed Mac.

I haven't heard anyone refer to the CP/M OS for years. Those were the
days of the really big floppy disks, too. (If I remember correctly I
had seen disks that were like 6 or 7 inches.) I understand what
you're saying, and you've obviously have been involved for sometime.
Even still, IBM being late to the party, it's architecture was what
was adopted early on by small, independent manufacturer's of pc's, as
it's architecture was left unprotected. And IBM had provided an
architecture that wasn't fully integrated and proprietary. And
considering that Microsoft had a business arrangement with IBM to
provide MS-DOS on their systems, it became the OS of choice for the
producers of clones. There were the competing OS's like Dr. DOS,
Seven DOS, and Quarterdeck's multitasking software (the name escapes
me), but MS-DOS won out, and if for no other reason than it had that
special relationship with IBM. And the early versions of Windows were
designed to work as a time-slicing program, multitasking program in
the MS-DOS OS, that is until Windows 95, which was Bill's attempt to
supplant MS-DOS as the OS. It's been such a long time, hopefully I
haven't confused the details too much. Too be honest my first
personal computer was an Atari 800xl. (I loved that thing. I think
it was a 6502 process.)

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On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 23:52:12 -0400, Wayne.B
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 21:59:57 -0500, (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>
>>MS-DOS won out, and if for no other reason than it had that
>>special relationship with IBM.
>
>There was a very funny story, quite possibly true, about IBM's
>selection of MS-DOS. Prior to the PC the S-100 hardware bus and CPM
>operating system were becoming defacto standards for personal
>computers. The IBM development team wanted to evaluate CPM for their
>PC product and made an appointment to meet with Gary Kildall,
>president of Digital Research, and founder of CPM. The story goes
>that when the IBM team arrived for the meeting, Kidall was out flying
>his airplane. The rest is history.

I don't recall having heard that story before, though, it has a
familiar ring to it. I had read before that Gates recognized an
opportunity with IBM, and he deftly purchased the rights to Quick Dos
(?) which had been developed by a small Seattle software company. From
there, he flew, with his newly packaged software, to meet with the IBM
folks, and as you said, the rest is history.

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On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 22:57:22 -0700, jps <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 21:29:11 -0400, BAR <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>>> On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:53:17 -0400, Wayne.B
>>> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Maybe it's just me but I find this very cool. Bill Gates has
>>>> acquired the rights to a series of lectures by famous physicist
>>>> Richard Feynman and has put them online with full transcripts and
>>>> animated annotations. Feynman, of course, is not only a Nobel prize
>>>> winner but an incredibly lucid speaker who has a good sense of humor
>>>> and a gift for explaining the very complicated at a human level.
>>>>
>>>> http://research.microsoft.com/apps/t...uva/index.html
>>>
>>>
>>> We can all be grateful for Bill's munificence. Perhaps he could have
>>> as well adopted the Linux model and permitted Windows to be
>>> open-source. That would have been righteous.
>>
>>You did notice that Billy Gates didn't get all philanthropic until he
>>got all of his.
>
>He didn't get philanthropic until Melinda piqued his interest in life
>outside of the PC race. Not that his family didn't already lean that
>way, it just required having a better half to broaden his focus.
>
>He's making up for his rabid competitiveness, laser focus and take no
>prisoners approach by redistributing all that earned booty to
>excellent causes. He's doing a better job than any government could.

Agreed.

BAR <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
news:(E-Mail Removed) :

> Way back in 1983 I was running a CTOS, PC-DOS, and CP/M-86 on a single
> 8086 with 640K of memory. When I say running I mean running and not
> booting up one after the other. The problem was the cost of the
systems
> prohibitied there widespread commercial adoption. However, one
uniformed
> service had them deployed all over the world in mass quantities.
>

My first computer, an S-100 bus homebrew, had 8K of memory, toggle
switches for hexidecimal input and 6V light bulbs running on 5V for
output. Then, some smartasses came out with BASIC in ROM and a 20ma
teletype loop interface to simplify I/O. We all ran through miles of
paper tape stolen from whoever left a roll unguarded. I still have
ASCII paper tapes in a drawer somewhere for old-times-sake. We
meticulously input text to create huge Vargas Girls pictures on teletype
machines we also transmitted in Baudot teletype code over ham radio for
hours. Each month the day Playboy came out enthousiasts across the
planet deserted work and family until their best text conversion was
being transmitted of the latest Vargas girl.

8K ran short very soon and more smartasses sold us 256K monsterous
memory cards for $250 you just HAD to have...more than that new car, TV,
stereo...

We moved on to CP/M and Unix (stolen again). Then this little kid
genius with 7 other guys formed a company only a few now-billionaires
invested in called Microsoft. Their picture hangs on my wall next to a
picture of Billy Gates and Paul Allen taken by a school teacher through
the window of the closet the school had installed a teletype terminal on
a phone line hooked to somebody's IBM 360. Billy said, "We told it what
to do and it did it!" That picture is captioned "TIME BOMB". It's the
earliest picture I know of of Gates at a computer. He was about 14, I'm
told, but looks, as always like much younger...10?

Time Bomb:
http://www.askreamaor.com/images/wat...Allen_work.jpg

The Early Years 1978
http://www.wagoneers.com/CS/MSinfo/m...arly-years.jpg
Would you have given these guys your money?
Anyone who did is now filthy rich......


--
-----
Larry

Noone will be safe until the last lawyer has been strangled by the
entrails of the last cleric.

(E-Mail Removed) wrote in news:v45t5516fe7ced07mt0ej5lt07v7i8emsa@
4ax.com:

> I think
> it was a 6502 process.)
>

I was on Ohio Scientific dealer. Here is our 6502 C2. You added the
DUAL 8" floppy drives in another box. Video was TV!...no graphics.
http://osi.marks-lab.com/images/Challenger2-8P.jpg

If you go to Mark's Lab:
http://osi.marks-lab.com/
You can download the OSI Emulator, which will turn your Windows machine
into an OSI Cx computer circa 1975, complete with OS-65/U operating
system and OSI extended BASIC in virtual ROM. Take a step back in time
and test your skills!

You can also download the ORIGINAL OS-65D V3.3 disk images for your 8"
6502 floppy drives....one of the first disk-based operating systems for
microcomputers.

http://osi.marks-lab.com/images/pamphlet5.jpg
This is our first home computer, the C2 Challenger II. Tape programmed
MUCH faster than Radio Crap's TRS-DOS with TV output you could plug into
any TV video port or use a TV RF modulator. No monitor to buy, if you
couldn't afford one.

Wow...I'd forgotten our retail prices...(c;]

Here's a great page to show our stuff:
http://technology.niagarac.on.ca/peo...cientific.html
Look down this page and you'll see a two-cabinet computer with serial
terminal and big white 8" disk drive. That's the beast...The Challenger
III, the FIRST commercial microcomputer with a HARD DRIVE! The drive, a
74MB, 14", 4-platter monster stolen from the mini-computer market, was a
$6000 ADDON! The Challenger III had THREE processors, a Z-80 for CP/M,
a Motorola 6800 and our usual 6502 running OS-65/U with extended BASIC
that actually supported the hard disk drive noone else had. Want to
boot another OS? No problemo! Just flip the switch to choose your
processor and click the big button on the front to REBOOT from your
floppy!

My partner and I wrote several BASIC systems and sold them as packages
to small business. Our vending machine accounting system was still in
use as late as 1989 in several places. OSI had a vendor for general
accounting on it. Sold quite a few of those. We wrote customized
database systems for specific others....trucking, inventory control,
etc. We made more money on support than sales. Computers were not a
do-it-yourselves plug-n-pray like today. We bought terminals for it
directly from a dumb terminal manufacturer 35 miles away in Columbia,
SC. We also sold the terminals as a dealer...ADDS Regent series, mostly
model 25...built like a tank.

Being an OSI dealer was a hobby for our CB business, but became much
more serious as we learned how to be computer dealers with on-the-job
training. 1975 up....great fun! Seeley Communications, Sumter, SC. My
biggest sale was to Liggett and Myers Tobacco Company in NC. We sold
them twenty four C4P with dual floppies and monitors to set up a
computer training class for their employees. Boy did we smile coming
home THAT day driving back to Sumter!

"Free set of tuning tools with every CB repair!".....(c;]


--
-----
Larry

Thanks for the memories....Geez, I been playing on keyboards a LONG
time!

On Thu, 16 Jul 2009 17:07:04 +0000, Larry <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>(E-Mail Removed) wrote in news:v45t5516fe7ced07mt0ej5lt07v7i8emsa@
>4ax.com:
>
>> I think
>> it was a 6502 process.)
>>
>
>I was on Ohio Scientific dealer. Here is our 6502 C2. You added the
>DUAL 8" floppy drives in another box. Video was TV!...no graphics.
>http://osi.marks-lab.com/images/Challenger2-8P.jpg
>
>If you go to Mark's Lab:
>http://osi.marks-lab.com/
>You can download the OSI Emulator, which will turn your Windows machine
>into an OSI Cx computer circa 1975, complete with OS-65/U operating
>system and OSI extended BASIC in virtual ROM. Take a step back in time
>and test your skills!
>
>You can also download the ORIGINAL OS-65D V3.3 disk images for your 8"
>6502 floppy drives....one of the first disk-based operating systems for
>microcomputers.
>
>http://osi.marks-lab.com/images/pamphlet5.jpg
>This is our first home computer, the C2 Challenger II. Tape programmed
>MUCH faster than Radio Crap's TRS-DOS with TV output you could plug into
>any TV video port or use a TV RF modulator. No monitor to buy, if you
>couldn't afford one.
>
>Wow...I'd forgotten our retail prices...(c;]
>
>Here's a great page to show our stuff:
>http://technology.niagarac.on.ca/peo...cientific.html
>Look down this page and you'll see a two-cabinet computer with serial
>terminal and big white 8" disk drive. That's the beast...The Challenger
>III, the FIRST commercial microcomputer with a HARD DRIVE! The drive, a
>74MB, 14", 4-platter monster stolen from the mini-computer market, was a
>$6000 ADDON! The Challenger III had THREE processors, a Z-80 for CP/M,
>a Motorola 6800 and our usual 6502 running OS-65/U with extended BASIC
>that actually supported the hard disk drive noone else had. Want to
>boot another OS? No problemo! Just flip the switch to choose your
>processor and click the big button on the front to REBOOT from your
>floppy!
>
>My partner and I wrote several BASIC systems and sold them as packages
>to small business. Our vending machine accounting system was still in
>use as late as 1989 in several places. OSI had a vendor for general
>accounting on it. Sold quite a few of those. We wrote customized
>database systems for specific others....trucking, inventory control,
>etc. We made more money on support than sales. Computers were not a
>do-it-yourselves plug-n-pray like today. We bought terminals for it
>directly from a dumb terminal manufacturer 35 miles away in Columbia,
>SC. We also sold the terminals as a dealer...ADDS Regent series, mostly
>model 25...built like a tank.
>
>Being an OSI dealer was a hobby for our CB business, but became much
>more serious as we learned how to be computer dealers with on-the-job
>training. 1975 up....great fun! Seeley Communications, Sumter, SC. My
>biggest sale was to Liggett and Myers Tobacco Company in NC. We sold
>them twenty four C4P with dual floppies and monitors to set up a
>computer training class for their employees. Boy did we smile coming
>home THAT day driving back to Sumter!
>
>"Free set of tuning tools with every CB repair!".....(c;]

Interesting stuff. I take it you're no fan of the TRS-80 The
Atari computers were obviously graphics based. The 800xl that I owned
could accept data via tape, cartridge, or disc (seperate box, if I
remember correctly). And the programming was either through an
assembler cartridge or Basic. Atari never did focus on the business
market. That and Nintendo laid Atari to rest, unfortunately.

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