Electronics Forums

Electronics Forums > Newsgroups > Electronics Newsgroups > Electronic Design > Re: Noise figure measurements--tire kicking requested

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes

Re: Noise figure measurements--tire kicking requested

 
 
Okkim Atnarivik
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      12-14-2011, 10:17 AM
Phil Hobbs <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
: I need a gizmo for making accurate measurements of low noise
: temperatures from near DC to a few hundred megahertz. I'd like to be in
: +- 0.1 dB territory for noise temperatures from about 25 K to 300 K.
: Something pretty well based on first principles that doesn't itself need
: calibration would be the ticket.

: I've been looking at switching between hot and cold resistors using a
: coax relay, but they all seem to have return loss funnies down at the
: 0.3 dB level.

: I'm leaning towards just putting an 0603 resistor on the end of a few
: inches of 0.81 mm coax and silver-epoxying the shield to a small
: Peltier. The heat leak won't be much (only about 0.6 mW/K for 10 cm
: length. With appropriately placed Styrofoam, I can run that from
: probably -30 C to +60 C, which will give me about 1.4 dB change in the
: thermal noise. The measurement would basically be to run a few
: temperature cycles, measuring the output noise as it goes.

: The output noise will be proportional to the sum of the noise
: temperatures of the amplifier and the resistor. As long as the gain of
: the amp stays constant, I can calculate its noise temperature as follows

: R = (measured total power at Th)/(measured total power at Tc)

: (Th - R*Tc)
: Tn = -----------
: R-1

: Assuming the amp and power meter are linear, all the level calibrations
: cancel out, so I ought to be sensitive only to errors in Th, Tc, and R.
: Getting a 2% measurement down at 25K from this setup will require
: something like 0.2 K temperature accuracy, which isn't that easy to do,
: but I can probably do nearly that well with a diode-connected
: transistor. Down at the 25K end, 5% wouldn't be that awful as long as
: it sits still, and I can do that well with a YSI glass bead thermistor.

: Any relevant experiences/suggestions/criticisms welcomed.

I don't have much experience on ultra-stable gain contraptions, so
I'd rather suggest ways to reduce the acuracy requirement.

If you can get hold of liquid nitrogen, through a colleaque in a local
physics lab for instance, matters would become rather easy. LN can be
carried around in a stainless steel thermobottle which you can get
from a local camping store. The cold resitor can just be hanging from
a twisted pair or a small-diameter coax. I have wired a full LHe dipstick
by using prefabricated U.FL-U.FL cables (like DigiKey H11554-ND), which
saved me the trouble of soldering the connectors to the cable. The
SMD resistors specified at 25 ppm/C, or even at 50 ppm/C (I like
Susumu RR0816Q series) hold their values quite well down to LHe, but of
course this is something you may want to calibrate out, depending on
your accuracy requirements.

The role of the hot resistor in the cold/hot resistor noise figure
measurement is just to calibrate the gain of your amplifier chain. As
John L. pointed out, it is much easier just to use a cold *attenuator*,
and "warm it up" by feeding additional noise into it. At frequencies I'm
typically interested in I can do it with an ARB generator. At microwaves,
where you usually must calibrate everything, the hot resistor *is* nice,
as a sure-fire self-calibrated flatband noise source. With the attenuator,
pseudorandom noise is just one convenient way to do the gain and frequency
response calibration (when doing noise measurements you have a spectrum
analyzer hooked at the amp output anyway), but a chirp or a sine sweep
would work equally well.

If you are not operating at very high frequencies, it is possible to just
measure separately the voltage noise of the amplifier by using a
room-temperature source resistance significantly lower than the noise match,
and current noise by using a source significantly higher than the noise
match. Make the load resistors into the attenuator shape so that you can
measure the gain on-the-fly. You then calculate Tn = un in / 2 kB . If the
source is ac coupled it does not affect the amplifier biasing as it otherwise
would. Parasitics are likely to cause a frequency rolloff when the source
is away from the designed match, but you can recognize that (and to an
extent cancel out) from the measured gain response. But a few hundred MHz
may be difficult this way.

One more possibility is to make an actively cooled resistor out of an
amplifier, following Percival's ideas, but to make it unconditionally stable
and figure out *its* characteristics may be more work than your attempt
for ultra-stable gains. I think I have seen this suggested somewhere ...
ahh, here it is: Frater and Williams, IEEE Tran. MTT, vol 20 no 4 p 344,
1981.

Regards,
Mikko

 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
 
Jeroen Belleman
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      12-16-2011, 08:32 AM
George Herold wrote:
> [...]
> Thanks for the reference to actively cooled loads.
>
> I don't suppose anyone has a link/ reference to an article that shows
> an actual circuit. I've been trolling the web with no luck. It's
> something I've never quite understood. Is it related to active
> damping of mechanical systems?


It's not so mysterious. Say, you want an amplifier with a
defined input resistance to terminate a source with impedance
Rs. Consider the two arrangements below:

R=Rs
-----/\/\/\----
| |
| ===
|
Rs | |\
-----/\/\/\--+-------| >------- Uo
| |/ A
Uin
|
===

R=Rs(1-A)
-----/\/\/\----
| |
Rs | |\ |
-----/\/\/\--+-------| >------- Uo
| |/ A
Uin
|
===

Say that the amplifier block has gain A, largish and negative.
Both amplifiers have gain Uo/Uin = A/2 and input impedance Rs.
Considering only the noise contributions of the resistors, the
input-referred noise level of the top circuit is sqrt(4kT Rs/2).
For the bottom circuit, it's sqrt(4kT Rs)/2.

That latter value is what the noise would have been with a
noiseless termination resistor, i.e., only the noise of the
source resistance is seen.

I used this in the head amplifiers for beam position position
monitors in an accelerator here at CERN. You can see a snippet
of the schematics here: <http://cern.ch/jeroen/junk/bf861amp3.gif>.
It ended up having an input referred noise level of 290pV/rt(Hz).

Getting this right in wide-band amplifiers is fiddly.

Jeroen Belleman
 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
 
Okkim Atnarivik
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      12-16-2011, 04:39 PM
George Herold <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
: I don't suppose anyone has a link/ reference to an article that shows
: an actual circuit. I've been trolling the web with no luck. It's

Like Jeroen said its quite simple. Take an inverting amplifier
with a gain of, say, 10 V/V. Then connect a feedback resistor of
500ohms across it. Now look at the amp input (I'm too tired to mind
A-1 vs. A): it looks like a 50 ohm resistor with 1/10 of the noise
temperature (provided that the amplifier is noiseless). The simplest
inverting amplifier is a single transistor.

Many amplifier IC's use the technique internally, including the VCA2611
and the AD8331. Actually I'm under impression that most low noise
RF gain blocks use it internally.

: something I've never quite understood. Is it related to active
: damping of mechanical systems?

Effectively the same thing.

This is the way to transform an amplifier into a refrigerator. Is
there a generic way to transform a refrigerator into an amplifier? Both
are devices which struggle to decrease entropy locally. Life does it, too.

Regards,
Mikko
 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Re: Noise figure measurements--tire kicking requested Joerg Electronic Design 2 12-14-2011 05:15 PM
Re: Noise figure measurements--tire kicking requested Okkim Atnarivik Electronic Design 0 12-14-2011 04:54 PM
Re: Noise figure measurements--tire kicking requested Jeroen Belleman Electronic Design 0 12-14-2011 04:03 PM
Re: Noise figure measurements--tire kicking requested Fred Bartoli Electronic Design 0 12-14-2011 07:08 AM
Re: Noise figure measurements--tire kicking requested Joerg Electronic Design 0 12-14-2011 12:00 AM