Old Before It's Time?

"George Jetson" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:4AlVg.19930$(E-Mail Removed) m...

> The way consumer electronics are designed anymore, the solder won't fail
> before the low budget design does.
>
> I have too often seen the horror of a 10 cent part used instead of a15
> cent part or just sloppy circuit board layout and construction. I guess
> it's just cheaper not to care, now we can stuff the landfills with a new
> and improved alloy of tin.

Seriously, what the hell will be the end of all of this? Unless there is
some plan in place for a 100% return of all disused or failed products for
recycling I cannot see a happy ending to this cycle.

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>> But it's very politically correct. Having the politicians tell you how
>> to build electronics is like going to a florist for dental work.
>
>
> Even worse, its European politicians know it alls who wouldn't know
> which end of a soldering iron to pick up. The US should refuse to allow
> the importation of any ROHS crap.
>
Just a little counterpoint here...I have used lead free solder in
plumbing applications. It was all that was available at my hardware
store when I decided to replace all the really crappy galvanized piping
in my basement.

Despite my initial misgivings, it was as easy to use as leaded, and
lasted until I sold the house. I know that this is not strictly
on-topic for this discussion; but I did feel a little safer drinking
water which had flowed through pipeage with no lead content...illusion
perhaps, I guess.

jak

jakdedert wrote:
>
> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> > (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> >> But it's very politically correct. Having the politicians tell you how
> >> to build electronics is like going to a florist for dental work.
> >
> >
> > Even worse, its European politicians know it alls who wouldn't know
> > which end of a soldering iron to pick up. The US should refuse to allow
> > the importation of any ROHS crap.
> >
> Just a little counterpoint here...I have used lead free solder in
> plumbing applications. It was all that was available at my hardware
> store when I decided to replace all the really crappy galvanized piping
> in my basement.
>
> Despite my initial misgivings, it was as easy to use as leaded, and
> lasted until I sold the house. I know that this is not strictly
> on-topic for this discussion; but I did feel a little safer drinking
> water which had flowed through pipeage with no lead content...illusion
> perhaps, I guess.
>
> jak


You don't have the different thermal expansion rates like on a
circuit board, and you have a huge solder area when compared to a 0805
or smaller SMD part. Its a whole different game.

As far as safer, unless the pipe is carrying distilled water, no lead
will be dissolved. A layer of calcium will cover the inside of the pipe
which keeps both the copper and solder from dissolving.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Homer J Simpson ha escrito:

> "George Jetson" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:4AlVg.19930$(E-Mail Removed) m...
>
> > The way consumer electronics are designed anymore, the solder won't fail
> > before the low budget design does.
> >
> > I have too often seen the horror of a 10 cent part used instead of a15
> > cent part or just sloppy circuit board layout and construction. I guess
> > it's just cheaper not to care, now we can stuff the landfills with a new
> > and improved alloy of tin.
>
> Seriously, what the hell will be the end of all of this? Unless there is
> some plan in place for a 100% return of all disused or failed products for
> recycling I cannot see a happy ending to this cycle.

as long as there are powerful corporate interests at stake, whose
incomes depend on continually selling people stuff, and who have enough
money to buy up political power and affect legislation, things will
probably get worse rather than better, unless consumers wise up and
start to demand reliability instead of cheap prices.
And with the masses born and bred in the morinc consumer mindset, (try
asking any teenager to carry round a mobile phone older than about 1
year and see what kind of response you get!) how do you think all that
is going to turn around? not without a genetic mutation it isn't!
-B-

b wrote:
> Homer J Simpson ha escrito:
>
> > "George Jetson" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> > news:4AlVg.19930$(E-Mail Removed) m...
> >
> > > The way consumer electronics are designed anymore, the solder won't fail
> > > before the low budget design does.
> > >
> > > I have too often seen the horror of a 10 cent part used instead of a15
> > > cent part or just sloppy circuit board layout and construction. I guess
> > > it's just cheaper not to care, now we can stuff the landfills with a new
> > > and improved alloy of tin.
> >
> > Seriously, what the hell will be the end of all of this? Unless there is
> > some plan in place for a 100% return of all disused or failed products for
> > recycling I cannot see a happy ending to this cycle.
>
> as long as there are powerful corporate interests at stake, whose
> incomes depend on continually selling people stuff, and who have enough
> money to buy up political power and affect legislation, things will
> probably get worse rather than better, unless consumers wise up and
> start to demand reliability instead of cheap prices.
> And with the masses born and bred in the morinc consumer mindset, (try
> asking any teenager to carry round a mobile phone older than about 1
> year and see what kind of response you get!) how do you think all that
> is going to turn around? not without a genetic mutation it isn't!
> -B-


The problem with bad solder joints was the reason RCA/Thomson issued
special repair kits for use when an RCA TV with an onboard tuner was
being serviced. The solder used when the set was originally
manufactured would crack under heat and flexing, so a special type of
solder (more flexible) has to be used when repairing these tuners,
especially when resoldering the grounds around the tuner after the job
is completed. Many RCA/GE TVs of recent vintage suffered major problems
with the EEPROM jungle IC when these joints failed, causing noise to
get into the chip and destroying the programming. Today's Thomson-made
TVs do not have this problem since the company wised up and started
mounting the tuner separately from the main chassis. I speak from
experience on the tuner ground problems with the earlier Thomson sets,
as I had to have mine repaired a few months after I purchased it; the
RF port snapped off the tuner PCB, requiring that the technician remove
the cover from the underside of the chassis which meant, of course,
unsoldering the original ground points. He fixed the connector,
resoldered the ground points, and that was the end of the problem. The
TV has been working like a champ since, almost seven years now. It's
doing so well, in fact, that I expect it will be around to see the new
TV standards come in 2.5 years from now or thereabouts unless the CRT
or some other part goes, which I doubt; the set makes a great picture
on cable right now.

BTW (slightly OT), in response to your comment about "ask any
teenager to carry around a cell phone more than a year old and see what
you get": Kids today are no different from kids of any other
generation. They want what their friends have, and if what they have is
newer, the kids are going to feel slighted. This is the 21st century
version of "keeping up with the Joneses," only with kids it's worse
because teenagers, especially, are very competitive and don't want to
have "stale" or "old" technology when their peers have the latest
things; for example, what teenager today would be caught dead with
anything less than an MP3 player for music? I read not long ago where
even CDs are considered by today's kids to be old technology belonging
to the 20th century. Cassettes? I doubt if many, if any, of today's
teens would know what an audio cassette is. Eight-track tape is even
worse. Show a teenager an 8-track cartridge today and he or she will
likely be floored; try to tell these kids that (and cassettes) are what
kids their age in the '60s-'70s listened to and you will get the same
response, more or less. I grew up in the late '60s and '70s (I'm 50
years old now), so I grew up with 8-tracks and cassettes, but trying to
tell a teenager in this century about this technology, which most kids
today think is about as close to "the stone age" as one can get (their
term for it is, or at least was, "yesterday's news"), may get you
nowhere fast. Even the method by which kids pass notes in school during
classes these days has changed; when I was in school 30+ years ago it
was done on paper, but today's kids use cell phones and text
messaging--more often than not behind the teacher's back. I saw an
article in my local newspaper the other day about this change, which
some (even many or most) schoolteachers and principals would like to
ban because it takes the kids' minds off what they are actually in
school for, which is education.

Jeff Strieble, WB8NHV (email addy not shown to deter spammers)
Fairport Harbor, Ohio USA

Jeff, WB8NHV spake thus:

> ... I read not long ago where
> even CDs are considered by today's kids to be old technology belonging
> to the 20th century. Cassettes? I doubt if many, if any, of today's
> teens would know what an audio cassette is. Eight-track tape is even
> worse. Show a teenager an 8-track cartridge today and he or she will
> likely be floored; try to tell these kids that (and cassettes) are what
> kids their age in the '60s-'70s listened to and you will get the same
> response, more or less. I grew up in the late '60s and '70s (I'm 50
> years old now), so I grew up with 8-tracks and cassettes, but trying to
> tell a teenager in this century about this technology, which most kids
> today think is about as close to "the stone age" as one can get (their
> term for it is, or at least was, "yesterday's news"), may get you
> nowhere fast.

Heh; just a little older than you, so I wonder what those kids would
think of reel-to-reel-tape. (Or the wire recorder I once had.) At least
some of them know what LPs are (and still use them for disco purposes).


--
Save the Planet
Kill Yourself

- motto of the Church of Euthanasia (http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/)

On Fri, 06 Oct 2006 15:03:51 GMT, "Michael A. Terrell"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

SNIP

> As far as safer, unless the pipe is carrying distilled water, no lead
>will be dissolved. A layer of calcium will cover the inside of the pipe
>which keeps both the copper and solder from dissolving.


Not quite sure what you mean by this....

It can be read as; "if the pipe IS carrying distilled water then lead
and/or copper WILL be dissolved."

I feel that this is not what you intended so some clarification is
needed.

Most domestic plumbing these days is either in copper pipes or plastic
listed as suitable for potable water. Lead free solders are mandatory
for domestic plumbing nowadays but such was not always the case.

Here is an article on lead in drinking water as it relates to
Australia.
http://www.lead.org.au/lanv8n1/l8v1-11.html

Ross Herbert wrote:
>
> On Fri, 06 Oct 2006 15:03:51 GMT, "Michael A. Terrell"
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
> SNIP
>
> > As far as safer, unless the pipe is carrying distilled water, no lead
> >will be dissolved. A layer of calcium will cover the inside of the pipe
> >which keeps both the copper and solder from dissolving.
>
> Not quite sure what you mean by this....
>
> It can be read as; "if the pipe IS carrying distilled water then lead
> and/or copper WILL be dissolved."
>
> I feel that this is not what you intended so some clarification is
> needed.
>
> Most domestic plumbing these days is either in copper pipes or plastic
> listed as suitable for potable water. Lead free solders are mandatory
> for domestic plumbing nowadays but such was not always the case.
>
> Here is an article on lead in drinking water as it relates to
> Australia.
> http://www.lead.org.au/lanv8n1/l8v1-11.html


Distilled water will dissolve trace amounts of the metal over time,
but normal drinking water has enough dissolved minerals to prevent this
from happening. It will create a thin coating of minerals that cover
the inside surface of the pipe, preventing any of the metal from being
in contact with the water. HAve you ever seen a really old piece of
pipe used to carry water? I've seen pieces that had less than a 1/8"
opening in a 1" I.D. pipe. The walls had built up a layer of minerals
so thick that water just dripped out with the faucet wide open.

Drinking water has some trace minerals, so you don't have to worry
about it, unless the water is slightly acidic.


The article you cited was about lead pipes, which is a whole
different animal, with millions of times the amount of lead in contact
with the water. Also, lead pipes are soft, which doesn't help.


Did you know that some early water mains were hollowed out logs
coated with pitch, and buried under city streets?


I have had to run TV transmitters with closed, distilled water
systems. From time to time they had to be cleaned with Citric acid, or
Tyglos, then purged, flushed twice with tap water, a third flush with
distilled water, and then filled with distilled water and industrial
antifreeze. Even after 30+ years of daily service, there were no signs
of erosion inside the copper pipe or brass fittings in an RCA TTU-25B
transmitter I moved and rebuilt.
..

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida